Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post Reply
User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:31 pm

Dr.B:

http://vimeo.com/43614289
This is a wonderful 45 min doc on Tayuu.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:32 pm

Lindethiel:

It had Geiko Kosen & Satsuki in it too. The same crew did a lovely documentary covering Fukuhina's erikae, it's stunning!

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:32 pm

Sarcasm-hime:

That was really interesting to watch! Although the narration was really cheesy sometimes :roll:

I have to wonder how much to believe though. Because it did come across very much like the modern 'geiko never slept with customers EVAR' attitude which is clearly an attempt to tidy up their image in line with 'proper cultural icons' but glosses over actual history, pretending that the way things are now is the way they always have been. :P

So it's hard to believe that tayuu looked totally different from geiko yet were the same, and look almost the same as oiran but are totally different? LOL yeah right. Shimabara may be essentially just another hanamachi now, after prostitution was outlawed, but that doesn't mean it ALWAYS was.

I also disliked how dismissive it was of geiko, like they're nothing compared to a tayu, ignoring how hard they work. And if she's in Kyoto and wants to meet artists who commit their lives to art, most people would think of geiko, not tayu. The whole thing comes across kind of like a tourism promotion for Shimabara.

At the same time, though, everything I've read about modern tayuu and oiran says that they're just actresses hired to entertain tourists, and I had thought that they just dress up to parade around at festivals. Yet Kisaragi-tayu debuted at 15 and knows music and dance, and seems to be committed to this...? So I wonder if there still is some kind of apprenticeship system like with geiko.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:34 pm

katto-san:

Thank you for posting, that was fascinating! Really enjoyed seeing a glimpse of the wonderful architecture, rituals and performance up close.

I know it was cheesy, but I kinda liked the drawing of a parallel with another artist struggling to preserve a cultural form in a world where they are under threat. Traditional artists from different cultures will have a natural affinity with each other as they understand what it's like to be a rock in a flowing river.

Maybe they chose to feature tayu in the documentary because they are so rare - docs about geisha crop up quite regularly, but this is even more of a hidden world.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:34 pm

SuperGrouper:

...the constant insistence that tayuu = just high-ranking geisha really kind of bugs me. :S And it bugs me more to know that it HAS TO BE intentional, since they produced it in Kyoto with people who would definitely know. I hardly know anything about karyuukai, and even I know that tayuu aren't geisha... :S

It seems to me almost like they're lying to whitewash history...

Weren't most of the earlier tayuu, I think, sold to the tayuu houses as children and not allowed to escape? It's so sad I can't stand it... ;__;

One thing that REALLY does interest me about the video is the easy-kimono the kimono store owner designed, though- it looked like it had the nagajuban built-in, and used belts? :? Does anyone know more about that??

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:35 pm

Hikari:

The thing that bugs me seeing this, is that I don't understand why they seem to want to erase all the bad aspects of it from history. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have prostitution as part of your history, most countries do. I don't really see the harm in saying "hey, we had people trained in various forms of art that were also prostitutes, but no worries, we don't do that anymore, we just have people that are dedicated to keeping the tradition alive." I'd rather hear that then someone lying in an attempt to cover it up. And let's face it, any educated person could find out the real history, you can never completely erase it. And I also didn't like the putting down of geisha. They have amazing talents, are definitely masters of arts, and work very hard.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:36 pm

Lumikettu:

I was really interested to see the tayuu ozashiki, it was beautiful. And Kisaragi tayuu, I've always thought that she was stunning and skilled and now I heard her speak.. She has such a wonderful voice. Thank you for sharing this video!

I'm also a little sceptical on how much information is believable. For instance the "Cream of geisha are the tayuu" made me cringe. I've always thought (and also taught) that they are two different professions that have sprung up from shared space.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:36 pm

XxOiranxX:


I got bothered when they said they looked alike but were different, front-tied obi, bare feet, kamuro, dochus, etc. It did look more like a tourist/superiority thing, not saying Kyoto's bad or anything, just wish they were honest in the show. I also almost burst out laughing when I heard the narrator say, "All preparations are done by women, no men are allowed to 'touch' the tayuu" 8-O

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:37 pm

Hisayakko:

I did know that either until recently. It turns out that there several active tayuu! Their names are Kisaragi, Furisode, Usugumo (with Furisode behind her) and there used to be a fourth one - Hanagumo but she retired to get married.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:38 pm

ChoChoSan:

This would have been a great documentary if they hadn't got so many facts wrong and mixed up. I was especially annoyed when Oiran where said to be uncultured, which is a very false and insulting accusation to make.

It's Maiko and Geiko who are entertainers and specifically not courtesans. Tayuu and Oiran did sell sell sex to their clients as high-ranking courtesans and were both equally refined, skilled and cultured. The only difference is that Tayuu came from Kyoto wheras Oiran were from Edo/Tokyo. Oiran and Tayuu of today only practice their arts for cultural preservation without the sexual aspect, but they were originally courtesans. Just because they were courtesans doesn't mean they were any less cultured or intelligent, they were far from being common prostitutes!

While technically the Oiran and Tayuu of today are "Geisha", the original culture of the Tayuu is separate to that of the Geiko, hence the term "Flower and Willow World".

Nevertheless, I thoroughly enjoyed watching Kisaragi dance, she was absolutely beautiful.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:39 pm

maikofan128:

I have to agree, the narration gets so cheesy at times!! LOL
And the hawaiian girl crying the whole documentary, I sorry it was a little absurd. Also the filming of the hula in the end made me dizzy and just didn't let me appreciate her dance.

However, about the rest of the documentary: it is possibly the closest look any one of us will ever get at kisaragi tayu and anything she does, so I'm really glad I saw it.

The extreme lengths they went to, to state clearly that tayu were not courtesans (such as saying "she is dressed by ladies because no man is allowed to touch the tayu") were a bit paranoid. I think the NHK are afraid others will look down on them for a national treasure having roots in prostitution and would not understand that Japan was not constrained by a victorian mentalty back then, so tayu just naturally evolved into an artform where she could get to pick if she wanted (because obviously all men would want her). But I think the whole world is past that and anyone that manages to see a documentary on this topic wouldn't judge on ancient history. Oiran/tayu who did what: I think they just go with "oiran were the prostitutes" because there are no more oiran to look at badly LOL. Anyway this is all just an opinion.

Personally I would be so worried about breaking my kanzashi while doing anything with that hairdo XD.

I'll repost the link to this pdf book I was reading, I think I found it in this forum. A digitalized version of a 1899 book on the pleasure districts of japan and their history. It is mostly about prostitutes but touches on geisha (calls them "dancing girls") briefly, when refering to the most expensive banquets that guests would attend when visiting oiran and tayuu. I can't remember if it was there that I read that sex with oiran and tayu was extremely ritualized and skillful as well, maybe the foreplay was so overwhelming that hardly anyone got to the sex with them or something... I mean they were supposed to be ...highly skilled in that field as well... and maybe the recovery from the... appetizers... was a bit too much XD

Honestly I am not sure 100% that they were the same thing originally or not, but who cares anyway, it is still beautiful and should be preserved.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:40 pm

Keiha:

That "documentary" was ridiculous :/ The Hawaiian woman was such a cheese ball...

My favorite part was how Kisaragi jingled when she walked :D and seeing her out of her tayuu costume. (Was I the only one who thought her arigatou, instead of ookini, at the end was meant a little tongue in cheek, because of the way the Hawaiian woman kept saying mahalo?) Aside from that, it was really contrived. These documentaries about the karyûkai make it out to seem like a party with geiko or tayuu is this highly ritualized meeting between art robots– they leave out the whole business of it being, y'know, fun or whatever. And the non-Japanese being "entertained" sit there with big googoo eyes @_@ more out of culture shock than any real pleasure. I don't like these "peeks" into the karyûkai shoving the beauty of it all down your throat, with none of the meat of it. They always leave out the part about geisha (or tayuu) being real women with personalities and senses of humor, the lifelong friendships and the fact that the karyûkai isn't really for everyone, not because of money but because of taste and sensibilities.

Wow, where did that rant come from?

Still, what a cheeseball.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:41 pm

maikofan128:

Mmmmm actually I think it was possible to see kisaragi-tayu's personality in the interview and that is actually one of the things I liked. I don't think that they showed her as a robot. I think they were good at showing her as a real woman, one that is not always dressed in a 30kg costume and that laughs and smiles and answers questions. Although if the hawaiian girl really was there to get answers I'm afraid Kisaragi's weren't much on the enlightment side LOL. I also thought the arigatou was funny, a bit of an attitude LOL. She looked so much younger than what I thought she would.

And yeah, the Hawaiian woman was such a cheese ball :P

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:42 pm

Buku3:

OMG... Do they think this seriously? Why do they want to mislead people with this video? This really disappointed me. What's this "tayuu is a geisha of the highest rank" stuff? Makes me pissed off. :evil: Don't they read history books? And if tayuu is more close to the geisha world than to the courtesan world, why are their customs so different from geisha, and close to the courtesans? Why are they barefoot? Why do they tie their obi in the front? Huh? And that gorgeous kimono and hairstyle was only allowed for prostitutes, as law prohibited it for geishas.
Though, don't misunderstand me, I like the art of tayuu, and they seem more mysterious for me, than geisha (because there are less documentaries about them), just I don't like if someone makes a mess in tayuu/oiran/geisha/maiko meaning.
That Hawaiian girl is strange for me... if I go to a foreign country, the least polite is to learn "good afternoon" "thank you" and "good-bye" in their language. I don't think that it's cool to say these things in your own language in an other country. Especially if you want to learn from their culture.

User avatar
IG Team
Administration Team
Administration Team
Posts: 3290
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Life as a TAYU - Diva beyond Geisha video

Post by IG Team » Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:42 pm

Gikuyu:

All women in ancient times tied their obi in th front.. Tayuu and Oiran kept doing it while the other women moved the knot to the back over the course of time

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 0 guests