Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

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Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:36 pm

Makoto

Here's a general site about Kansai-ben, or the dialect region that includes Kyoto, Osaka etc.

Thought it was an interesting discussion of some differences (nice sound examples) between Japanese Standard and the Kansai area (much of which would also apply to Kyoto...and the geiko/maiko subject of this site).


:? That said, despite the alternate pronunciations, is the ubiquitous "thank you"
ookini or ookimi? Anybody know by the hiragana?

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:37 pm

Kikuyo

Here is the hiragana for ookini: おおきに

I think the pronunciation issues arise from sub-dialects (tom-ay-toe, tom-ah-toe type stuff?), and the occasional typo*. For instance, I hear some people say "senbei" as "sembei" and I have seen it spelled and used both ways on websites and products. N sort of just blends into a N/M mix phonetically sometimes, depending what characters it is around... sort of like that tricky R sounding like an L/D/R thing, depending on who says what word.

* for you people who love pranks, N and M are 2 great keys to switch on a keyboard lol... also the comma and the period.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:37 pm

alestane

Makoto wrote:
Here's a general site about Kansai-ben[...]


Sounds interesting. I bought a couple of books on Kyo-kotoba recently, too.

But... I don't see the link or the name of the site?
Did you forget to post the link?

"Thank you" is indeed "ookini" (literally "in a big way").

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:38 pm

SuzumeOdori

Wait, where is the link?

To add a a firsthand note... I lived in Sendai, up north on the main island, for almost two years when I first moved to Japan. Apparently, they're pretty monotone up there because when I visited Kyoto a year into things I felt like everyone was shouting at me all weekend long. But happily so! ;)

Also, on the n-m question, I learned that n, when it comes before b or p always becomes m as it's either a voiced or voiceless consonant(?) (can't remember which one) and should be written and said as an m. I don't recall ever hearing a Japanese person calling things "senbei" or "tenpura", but perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention? It was always "sembei" and "tempura" to me.

If you think about it, we may have the same rule in English (though I could be completely wrong on this): semblance, not senblance, temperature, not tenperature, tremble not trenble.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:38 pm

alestane

SuzumeOdori wrote:
If you think about it, we may have the same rule in English (though I could be completely wrong on this): semblance, not senblance, temperature, not tenperature, tremble not trenble.


Yes, it's also a general spelling rule in French (which may actually be the reason why you see it in English, as the three words you mentioned exist in French too).

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:39 pm

Kikuyo

alestane wrote:
SuzumeOdori wrote:
If you think about it, we may have the same rule in English (though I could be completely wrong on this): semblance, not senblance, temperature, not tenperature, tremble not trenble.


Yes, it's also a general spelling rule in French (which may actually be the reason why you see it in English, as the three words you mentioned exist in French too).


Wait, I'm confused... what rule is this? Are they spelled with an N but pronounced as M, or the other way around or something? :? I think that's the case with the sembei/tempura thing... but I've always spelled these English words with an M.

I love French... I want to speak it for the rest of my life. French class gave me a much better understanding of English :D That class was so multifaceted, and amazing. I miss it :(

I think of it this way: I'm from Massachusetts, and most people are familiar with the typical/stereotypical Boston accents. Water becomes "watah", driver becomes "drivah", river becomes "rivah", etc. There seems to be an inability to pronounce ending or solitary Rs (I suppose they would even tell you that this letter is "Ah" lol). I'm from western Mass and we're perfectly fine with our Arrs, but do not ask us to enunciate a double-T in the middle of a word lol. Bottle is "boddle", throttle is "throddle", etc... sometimes even solitary Ts become Ds. I imagine anyone learning English from scratch in a heavily accented place would have a tough time getting hold of the (already) crazy (to begin with) phonetics.
I suppose the Japanese n/m and l/d/r are a similar case. My boyfriend's mother says her Japanese Rs very phonetically an L, and I always have to stop for a second to reassess the word in my head when I'm spelling out something she dictates, but I've heard all sorts of variation of the R, it just takes getting used to.

I have a question of my own that has been burning in my mind for a while, I hope it isn't silly :oops: : In Japanese, why do some words change their first consonant, but mean the same thing? I'm sure this has a technical term, lol, but I've never come across it in my ramshackle time spent teaching myself. I think I was too focused on learning katakana and hiragana than I was with actually using them. Like, in the case of a geisha's name, Ichigiku, why is it giku and not kiku, but it still means chrysanthemum? Is it for ease of pronunciation, like French liaison? I most commonly come across this happening with the "ki" character, but I just had a brain fart and can't think of any more examples. Is there a rule for this conversion?

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:39 pm

SuzumeOdori

Yes, they're spelled an m and (as far as I know always) pronounced an m. Where there's occasional confusion on the spelling is that in Japanese, the ん/ン (hiragana/katakana) is usually an "n" sound, so sometimes it ends up written "n" in romaji.

As to your consonant changing question, as you guessed it's a similar reason as the m/n thing. It's easier for the human mouth to form certain syllables one after the other when it's all appearing as one word. To use your example, say Ichi-kiku aloud and then Ichi-giku and see which one sounds easier. The kanji remain the same and only the pronuniciation changes.

If you look at a hiragana table, you can start to get a feel for what becomes what. Beyond k going to g (ka/ki/ku/ke/ko -> ga/gi/gu/ge/go), t goes to d (toki-doki, "sometimes", is a good example of this, as it's actually just "toki" x 2), h goes to b (ike-bana, rather than ike-hana) and s goes to z (ka-zan, 火山, (fire-mountain) "volcano", instead of ka-san). And the more you learn it, the more natural the one will sound over the other. :]

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:39 pm

alestane

The French rule is for spelling, not pronunciation M-B-P . But it may well have a basis in pronunciation, too.

Kikuyo wrote:
I have a question of my own that has been burning in my mind for a while, I hope it isn't silly :oops: : In Japanese, why do some words change their first consonant, but mean the same thing? I'm sure this has a technical term, lol, but I've never come across it in my ramshackle time spent teaching myself. I think I was too focused on learning katakana and hiragana than I was with actually using them. Like, in the case of a geisha's name, Ichigiku, why is it giku and not kiku, but it still means chrysanthemum? Is it for ease of pronunciation, like French liaison? I most commonly come across this happening with the "ki" character, but I just had a brain fart and can't think of any more examples. Is there a rule for this conversion?


I think it comes from ease of pronunciation indeed; the consonant is altered to the corresponding voiced consonant. It happens when the second part is considered part of the resulting composed word, and not as a stand-alone word. It's quite general (for consonants that have a voiced version), but not completely systematic I believe.

A few examples with other syllables than "ki" ;-) :
ko (small) + katana -> kogatana (small sword, knife)
ao (blue) + sora (sky) -> aozora
obi + shime(ru) (to close) -> obijime
hon (book) + tana (shelf) -> hondana
hashi (bridge) -> Nipponbashi

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:40 pm

Tahanala

As for French pronunciation... there are sounds made of one vowel followed by an N, such as "température" indeed, and the rule is to switch the N to an M when followed by a P or B. However, these sounds aren't diphthongs and and the N (or M) isn't pronounced; it is just a different sound from E alone. You can imagine "température" as "tehperature," where the consonant switch is silent. Of course, it makes it much harder for children learning to write, because they have to use this rule without any auditive clue! It is a good thing this rule is one of the very few to which there are no exceptions.

To make things even funnier, the "en" sound can also be spelled with an A: "danse," "ambulance," etc. The same N-to-M switch applies.
Oh, and sometimes "en" is pronounced like the number "1" is. As are "in," "en," "un","ain," "ein,"... the N-to-M switch applies here too.

(This was more than you ever wanted to know about French grammatical humour!)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:40 pm

alestane

Tahanala wrote:
there are sounds made of one vowel followed by an N, such as "température" indeed, and the rule is to switch the N to an M when followed by a P or B. However, these sounds aren't diphthongs and and the N (or M) isn't pronounced
Yes, and by the way those "an" "en" "in" "on" "un" are hard to distinguish for Japanese speakers, it seems. Well, "an" and "en" are indeed indistinguishable, but the other ones sound quite different to me...
On the other hand, French speakers tend to forget to pronounce the "h" sometimes, in Japanese or in English...
Tahanala wrote:
However, these sounds aren't diphthongs and and the N (or M) isn't pronounced
It may be depending on the speaker, on the region, or even n the particular sentence, but I believe sometimes it does sound more as if there was indeed a "m" in the middle. But well, that would be subtle at best, if I'm not imagining things.
Tahanala wrote:
It is a good thing this rule is one of the very few to which there are no exceptions.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as a rule without exception in French(*), and that would not be this one: words of the "bonbon" family are exempted from the n->m transformation.

(*) There is even a saying, "l'exception qui confirme la regle", as if a rule was more official or believable if it actually has a few exceptions ;-)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:41 pm

Rahmenhandlung

I think the n/m/ŋ thing is a problem that mainly arises from transliteration and spelling-- it's like the OU problem; how many ways does the English language have to pronounce those two letters? (It's at least seven for BE; I believe my phonetics teacher said eight, but I can't come up with the last one :/ out, you, enough, dough, cough, thought, should, ?) Just because something's written with ん in Japanese doesn't mean it's necessarily pronounced as /n/.

People have said much about the /n/ vs /m/ thing (btw, I think it'd be /niʕpombaɕi/, but ymmv) already, though, so I'll shut up about that.

About the original topic, though-- there's great differences between what "regular" Kyotoites use in everyday like and the language of the Geiko, and huge differences between different areas of the Kyoto prefecture even.

@SuzumeOdori: Personally, I love the melodic sound most of them share and get the feeling that people are stubbing me fairly regularly when I visit Tokyo or higher up north, but I can see why a northerner would feel everyone down here yells ;)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:42 pm

Haruo

Regarding the question about n changing to m: this is a feature of the Hepburn Romanization style, the predominant romanization system in use in the English speaking world. Wikipedia nicely summarizes it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_Ro ... Syllabic_n. Also, the changing of き to ぎ in some words is called 連濁 れんだく rendaku. It too has a wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendaku. I think that it's funny that not even the Japanese have rules regarding when or when it does not occur.

And yeah, Makoto, where's the link? I was going crazy until I read further down the thread. :)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:43 pm

Kikuyo

I think Makoto meant this site, IG, which does use a fair amount of Kyoto-ben because our geisha section focuses primarily around the Kyoto hanamachi.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:44 pm

alestane

Kikuyo wrote:
I think Makoto meant this site, IG, which does use a fair amount of Kyoto-ben because our geisha section focuses primarily around the Kyoto hanamachi.

Ah, I see, the intent may have been indeed to develop a thread specifically about Kyoto-ben here.

I'll list the few books I have on the subject, we could also list movies in which Kyoto-ben is used extensively. We might also throw in some typical expressions (or refer to them in the appropriate threads...)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:44 pm

Kikuyo

alestane wrote:
Kikuyo wrote:
I think Makoto meant this site, IG, which does use a fair amount of Kyoto-ben because our geisha section focuses primarily around the Kyoto hanamachi.

Ah, I see, the intent may have been indeed to develop a thread specifically about Kyoto-ben here.

I'll list the few books I have on the subject, we could also list movies in which Kyoto-ben is used extensively. We might also throw in some typical expressions (or refer to them in the appropriate threads...)


Well, I don't really know Kyoto-ben well enough to say for certain... but the incredibly sad movie Grave of the Fireflies has a bit of Kyoto-ben in it if i remember correctly. I remember the little girl clutching at the kimono and saying "Okaasan no bebe!" and "bebe" is Kyoto-ben for kimono (is it used anywhere else?).

Also, the movie Hanaikusa is entirely in Kyoto-ben, as it's about the life of Mineko Iwasaki, former Kyoto geiko.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:45 pm

alestane

Kikuyo wrote:
I wonder if the manga is written in Kyoto-ben? That would be nice to study with, pick up on slang and whatnot.


Yes, it is written at least partially in Kyoto-ben; I've seen some minor differences with what I read in other places.

"Hannari" a manga about a Tokyo TV girl and a Kyoto antiquaire, contains some Kyoto-ben too.

I suppose there are quite a number of movies that have significant parts in Kyoto-ben. "Omocha" is the first that comes to mind amongst those that are available reasonably easily with English subtitles.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:45 pm

Auberginefleur

I rather enjoy this site on Kyoto kotoba:

http://www.laits.utexas.edu/japanese/kyookotoba/



ps. I have a feeling there was a previous discussion on this, probably in the thread on how to pronounce Japanese words, but anyway….

The Japanese syllable “n” (ん) when it occurs at the end of a word is pronounced much like “n” in English. Otherwise, it does not have a consistent pronunciation, since its pronunciation elides into the next consonant, whichever one it may be. Possibilities I can think off the top of my head are

Manga 漫画 まんが
Hōmongi 訪問着 ほうもんぎ
Mendō 面倒 めんどう
Denpa 電波 でんぱ
Shinbun 新聞 しんぶん

It seems from these examples that ん is elided when preceding vocalized “g,” “d,” “b,” consonants, and “p.”

Also, writing ん as “m” when it occurs in the middle of the word is now a somewhat dated style of Romanization.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:45 pm

chamekke

Auberginefleur wrote:
ps. I have a feeling there was a previous discussion on this, probably in the thread on how to pronounce Japanese words, but anyway….

The Japanese syllable “n” (ん) when it occurs at the end of a word is pronounced much like “n” in English.


It's very much like "n", except that:

1 - It occupies a full beat or syllable (known in linguistics as a mora)... so you "hold" it longer. "Good evening" or konbanwa is pronounced ko - n - ba - n - wa, i.e. five full beats. If you were using the word in a tanka or haiku, it would take up five "syllables" - rather than, as most English-speakers would imagine, only three.

2 - In my experience, at least, Japanese people pronounce a terminal -n more softly and nasally than an English terminal -n. When you call someone -san, for example, it sounds more like the French word sans than the English syllable san (as in sanitary).

By the way, I visited Kyoto for the first time last autumn. I was surprised at how many people showed delight when I thanked them by saying Ookini rather than Arigatou gozaimasu. (Of course, the "delight" could also have been amusement!)

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:46 pm

orastella

And I think instead of oyasuminasai it's oyasumiyasu in kyoto-ben, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:46 pm

Ayapon

Hi guys, I have a book about Kansai dialect for English speakers.
I bought it for my husband (he's French but no problem with English)
Maybe you can find it in your local store or amazon...

Colloquial Kansai Japanese
DC Palter / Kaoru Slotsve
ISBN4-8053-0846-X
1200 yen + tax

I don't really think this will be help if you are planning to use Kansai-ben in Kyoto with geiko-san and maiko-san (it might to be rude), but if you go to Osaka resion, this is the best!
Everyone will say that they want to be your friends instantly! lol

I was born in Nagasaki, and raised at Okayama and Hiroshima, then moved to Kyoto for my nailschool (I lived in my grandma's house), worked in Osaka at that time, now live in Saitama...
Although those places are all located in west part of Japan other than Saitama, I had hard time to learn each dialect...
especialy keigo. :cry:
And since I have auditive problem, accent(merody?) is VERY important for me...
I couldn't understand what they were talking because of it, I'm okay with kansai-ben in books though...

Quote:
And I think instead of oyasuminasai it's oyasumiyasu in kyoto-ben, but I could be wrong.

it's correct, but young people doesn't use it other than maiko-san :P

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Re: Kyoto dialect (Kyoto-ben)?

Post by IG Team » Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:47 pm

togei

Hello,
I have lived in the Kansai area since I moved to Japan. My impression is the differences in pronunciation are many and not formalized. That is to say there aren't rules as such on when the "n" will not be pronounced or other differences. I have a book that has the rules for writing words in Katakana. The rules are many and headache inducing. The small village I live in, 30 minutes outside of Nara city has a wealth of differences from hyojungo, standard Japanese.
Dave

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